Thought About Food Podcast

Josh Milburn on Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals Part 2

This is Part 2 of an interview with Josh Milburn about his new book Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals. In this part of our conversation, we talk about our responsibilities toward and for wild animals that come under our care, such as in zoos or when we rescue wild predators.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe!
• Dr. Josh Milburn is a Lecturer in Political Philosophy and a British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow at Loughborough University. You can learn more on his website or by following him on Twitter.
• Josh's new book is Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals from McGill-Queen's University Press. Check it out! 
• I was a guest on Josh's podcast Knowing Animals. If you haven't heard it before, take a listen to episode 157, in which we discuss Precision Livestock Farming.
• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and at least one thing that should definitely not be served to our companion animals. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.
• Appropriately, this time Josh shared a recipe with us for a vegan suet feeder from the book Happy Vegan Christmas, though as he warns us, results may vary depending on the ambient temperature where you are (specifically, is coconut oil solid where you live). Take a look!
  
  "Suet Cups for Winter Garden Birds
  500g / 1lb. 2 oz. coconut oil
  100ml / 3 1/2 fl. oz. / a generous 1/3 cup canola oil
  700g / 1lb. 9oz. / 5 cups mixed wild bird seed
  Melt the coconut oil in a pan and stir in the [canola oil] and seeds . Scoop the mixture into old cups (or other vessels such as milk bottles or plastic containers). To make sure the birds can sit and enjoy picking their seeds, I insert a stick into each cup. Leave the fat to set. Tie string or a ribbon around the cup's handle and hang it up in a tree or at a bird feeding station. For my chickens, I make seed cups without inserting the sticks."

Josh Milburn on Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals Part 1

This is Part 1 of an interview with Josh Milburn about his new book Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals. In this part of our conversation, we talk about his inspiration for the book, and focus on ethical issues with what we feed the cats, dogs, and birds that live with us.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe!
• Dr. Josh Milburn is a Lecturer in Political Philosophy and a British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow at Loughborough University. You can learn more on his website or by following him on Twitter.
• Josh's new book is Just Fodder: The Ethics of Feeding Animals from McGill-Queen's University Press. Check it out! 
• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and at least one thing that should definitely not be served to our companion animals. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Zane McNeill on Carceral and Anti-Carceral Veganism

We spoke with Zane McNeill about his new book Vegan Entanglements: Dismantling Racial and Carceral Capitalism and what “carceral veganism” and “anti-carceral veganism” means and looks like. We also discuss his other new book, Y’all Means All: The Emerging Voices Queering Appalachia.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe!
• Zane McNeill is an activist and author who has published anthologies on anti-carceral veganism and queer and trans liberation with PM Press, Sanctuary Press, and Lantern Publishing and Media. They are also a contributing writer with Sentient Media and Law@theMargins.
• Zane's new book is Vegan Entanglements: Dismantling Racial and Carceral Capitalism from Lantern Press Media, and his other new book is Y'all Means All: The Emerging Voices Queering Appalachia. Check them out!
• Zane shared a recipe for Butternut Mac 'n Cheez that he had early in his career to being vegan that his mom made. Check it out, and we both recommend the Oh She Glows website generally.
• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and a not-straight-edge but certainly punk way to start the day. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Amy Hay on The Defoliation of America

We spoke with Amy Hay about about her new book The Defoliation of America: Agent Orange Chemicals, Citizens, and Protests. In it, she examines protests over the use of the phenoxy herbicide for agriculture and other purposes by different groups of citizens (scientists, religious groups, Vietnam veterans, and environmental/health activists) in post-1945 America.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe! The most recent video at the time of recording was made by a former student in Ian's Philosophy of Food class, talking about Arroz con Leche and eating it late at night with his grandmother and listening to stories from her childhood in Mexico.
• Amy Hay is an Associate Professor in the Department of History at the University of Texas Rio Grande Valley. Her research interests focus on 20th-century United States, Women/Gender History, and the histories of American medicine, public health, and the environment.
• Amy's new book is The Defoliation of America: Agent Orange Chemicals, Citizens, and Protests. Check it out!
• Amy shared a recipe for jambalaya which she says is the first recipe she really internalized and made her own. Here's the original, so take a look and modify it to suit you!
  
  

  "94121 Jambalaya Serves 4 or more from Roger Ebert’s The Pot and How to Use It: The mystery and romance of the rice cooker (Kansas City, KS: Andrews McMeel Publishing, LLC, 2010), 84.

  Ingredients:

  ½ onion, chopped

  Olive oil

  3 cups rice

  ½ cup white wine

  3 cups salted water or vegetable broth

  1 – 14 ounce sausage, cut into rounds

  Bok choy

  1 to 2 cups chicken

  Add as desired: Worcestershire sauce, Piment d’Espelette, red pepper flakes, or anything New Orleans-y such as shrimp or bell pepper.

  Method:

  1. Sauté the onion in olive oil in the Pot

  2. Add the rice and mix in unit until coated and moist

  3. Throw in some white wine if your wife isn’t looking

  4. Add the water or stock to the 3-cup line

  5. Brown 1 sausage, chopped into rounds

  6. After 10 minutes add the bok choy, sausage, and the cooked chicken

  7. The cooker should flip off after 15 minutes or so. Toss the ingredients and let sit another 10 to 15 minutes. Serve."

• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and something to study for its medicinal value as part of the popular epidemiology you're doing with your friends. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Robert Skipper on Obesity

We spoke with Robert Skipper about the social construction of obesity and some justice issues associated with that social construction, its roots in ancient philosophy, and obesity as a public health crisis. We also discuss the way he teaches philosophy of food to students, food as an aesthetic object, and more! It was a fascinating, wide-ranging conversation that I think you’ll really like.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe! The most recent video at the time of recording was made by a former student in Ian's Philosophy of Food class, talking about Alfajores and the meaning those cookies have for her.
• Robert Skipper is Professor of Philosophy, Affiliate Professor of Environmental Studies, and Fellow of the Graduate School at the University of Cincinnati.
• Skip is our first guest to share a cocktail recipe, and he's shared two! As he says, "They’re originals, at least as far as any cocktail can be original."
  
   

  
  Honey's Applejack

  1.5 oz Laird's Applejack
  .75 oz lemon juice
  .5 oz Benedictine
  .5 oz simple syrup
  2 dashes of Fee Bros Whisky Barrel Aged Bitters

  Combine ingredients in a shaker with ice and, well, shake. Strain into a coupe. Garnish with apple.

  There are some good flavors of apple, honey (from the Benedictine) and cinnamon (from the bitters).

  The Armchair

  1.5 oz Old Overholt Rye
  1 oz China-China liqueur
  .75 oz Punt e Mes vermouth
  4 dashes of 1821 Havana and Hide bitters

  Combine ingredients in an ice-filled mixing glass. Stir for 30 seconds or until arctic. Strain into coupe. No garnish needed.

• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and a nice way to start a day that can continue with the recipe suggestions above. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Julia Gibson on Philosophy and Farms

We spoke with Julia Gibson about being a philosopher living on a multi-generational farm co-owned by their extended family since 1795. As you might imagine, a lot of issues come up in a situation like that! We talk about how decisions are made for the farm, their current attempts to get a conservation easement to protect the farm into the future as the surrounding countryside gets developed, issues of justice involved with owning a farm on land that was originally stolen from indigenous people, and (in a connection to the last two episodes) her work as a vegan living on a farm with livestock and hunting, to think through animal rights, animal welfare, and how to talk about these things with her family. It's a great conversation; check it out!

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• We have a YouTube channel! It features more conversations about the meaning of food in our lives, and includes some great recipes to boot. Check it out here and subscribe! The first video we've uploaded was made by a former student in Ian's Philosophy of Food class, talking about carne asada and the meaning that food has for him.
• Julia Gibson is a philosopher who works at Antioch University New England while living on their family farm.
• Julia has a blog about "Life on Ryder Farm" that's well worth reading!
• Julia shared a recipe for vegan Buffalo Tofu Pizza. As she says, "I was trying to find a recipe using food on the farm, but my relationship to food on the farm is that I'm so happy to have fresh food that I just eat it. I wanted to share something I'm working on. The first time I made this it looked like a transporter accident. It was delicious! But hideous. I really love buffalo sauce, and I love that vegan buffalo sauce is just as easy as regular buffalo sauce.
  
  
  Recipe for Buffalo Tofu Pizza
  Pizza dough: homemade or store bought. Recipes abound online. I recommend using one that calls for half 00 flour and weighing it out.
  
  

  White Sauce:

  -1 cup raw cashews

  -3/4 cup vegetable broth

  -2 tbsp olive oil

  -1 tbsp lemon juice

  -1/4 nutritional yeast (or more to taste)

  -3 cloves garlic (or more to taste)

  -1/2 cup chopped white onion 

  -dash dried rosemary

  -dash black pepper

   

  1. Soak cashews overnight.

  2. Drain cashews and blend in food processor with broth, oil garlic, lemon juice, onion, nutritional yeast, and herbs.

   

  Buffalo sauce: It’s just original Frank’s RedHot and melted earth balance. Roughly 1:1, with a smidge more hot sauce than butter. Between 6-8 tbsp should do. You can always make more. 

   

  Tofu:

  -16oz firm or extra firm tofu

  -1/4 apple cider vinegar

  -2 tbsp tamari

  -1 tbsp toasted sesame oil

  -2 tsp garlic powder

  -1 tsp liquid smoke

  -dash black pepper

   

  1. Preheat oven to 350

  2. Cut tofu into 6-8 slices and arrange in single layer in a 8x8 glass baking dish.

  3. Combine other ingredients.

  4. Pour over tofu.(Flip once to get both sides.)

  5. Bake 30 minutes and flip. Bake 30 more minutes or until desired texture is achieved.

  6. Cube slices and toss with Buffalo sauce. 

   

  Ranch (makes more than you need):

  -1.5 cups Vegenaise or other vegan mayo

  -1/4-1/2 cup plain, unsweetened nondairy milk (I prefer WestSoy)

  -1.5 tsp apple cider vinegar

  -3 cloves garlic, crushed or minced

  -dash dried parsley

  -dash dried dill

  -dash onion powder

  -pinch paprika

  -pinch black pepper

  -salt to taste

   

  Assembly:

   

  1. Preheat oven (and pizza stone if you have one) to 475. 

  2. Roll out pizza dough.

  3. Top with white sauce and cheese (I use daiya mozzarella).

  4. Scatter tofu on top. Drizzle with half of the remaining sauce.

  5. Bake for 8-12 minutes until crust is golden brown.

  6. Drizzle with more Buffalo sauce, ranch sauce, and chopped fresh dill. "
• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and a nice way to start a day of rambling around a farm. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Tovar Cerulli on Being A Mindful Carnivore

We spoke with Tovar Cerulli about his journey from someone who unreflexively ate what he grew up eating, to a vegan, to someone who tries to mindfully eat animal products and even hunts and fishes. We also discuss justifications versus reasons, the importance of knowing how things we use and depend on come to us, the importance of mindfulness, and how groups (like hunters and vegans) react to perceived marginalization. Also there's the first wild game recipe in the history of the podcast! Check it out in the show notes.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• Tovar Cerulli is a vegan-turned-hunter who has worked as a public speaker, consultant, and collaborative thinking partner. He is committed to building bridges and understanding across ideological and cultural differences, especially as they relate to food and the larger-than-human natural world.
• Tovar's book is The Mindful Carnivore: A Vegetarian’s Hunt for Sustenance
• Tovar shared a recipe with us that uses ground venison; it's certainly the first recipe on the podcast for game you hunted! Tovar says: 
  

  "We'll be talking, at least in part, about hunting, so I have to share a venison recipe. I considered sharing a recipe for Venison Steak Diane, both because it's a favorite and because—whatever the actual origins of the dish and name—"Diane" always makes me think of Diana or Artemis, the goddess of the hunt.

  Instead, I landed on a simpler recipe that I put a small twist on. One winter day a year or two ago, I was assembling a cottage pie and decided it needed a little spicing up, so I swapped out a few of the seasonings for some curry powder. That moment of inspiration transformed a somewhat bland dish into something extraordinarily savory. It turns out that many similar recipes already exist but I'm grateful to have stumbled onto it myself.

  I make this with venison, of course, but I'm sure wonderful vegetarian or vegan versions could also be created.

  Curried Venison Cottage Pie

  1 lb. ground venison
  Olive oil
  1 onion, minced
  1/4 t. salt
  2 t. curry powder (more if you prefer spicy over savory)
  1 c. stock (venison, chicken, beef, or vegetable)

  3 medium potatoes, cubed
  3/4 c. milk
  Paprika

  4 T. butter
  2 carrots, sliced
  2 celery stalks, sliced
  1/4 lb. mushrooms, sliced
  1 c. frozen peas

  In a pot or skillet, heat a couple of tablespoons of olive oil over medium heat. Brown the ground venison and set aside. Add a bit more oil to the pot, plus the onion, salt, and curry powder, and saute for several minutes, stirring regularly, until the onion turns translucent. Add the browned venison back to the pot, mix thoroughly, then add the stock and simmer until the liquid is nearly gone.

  While the curried venison is simmering, boil and drain the potatoes, then mash with one tablespoon of butter and the milk. In another pot or skillet, melt two tablespoons of butter and saute the carrots, celery, and mushrooms, adding the peas at the end.

  Pour the curried venison into a casserole dish. Layer on the vegetables. Then spread the mashed potatoes over the top, dot with the remaining butter, and sprinkle with paprika. Bake at 375F for 30 minutes or until lightly browned.

  Enjoy! Perfect for a cold winter evening."

• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and something that can be enjoyed mindfully. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Danny Shahar on Why It’s OK to Eat Meat

We spoke with Danny Shahar about the arguments in his new book, Why it's OK to Eat Meat. As a vegan myself, I thought his arguments were quite thought-provoking, and surprisingly sympathetic to the concerns of vegans and vegetarians given the title. We also talk about the coordination problem and individual action in activism, why people sometimes agree with multiple positions that contradict each other, how to improve your red beans and rice game, and more. Check it out!

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• Danny Shahar teaches in the Public Policy, Ethics & Law program at the University of New Orleans and is a member of the Urban Entrepreneurship & Policy Institute.
• Danny's new book is Why It's OK to Eat Meat, and is published by Routledge.
• Danny also shared a recipe with us! In our talk he argued strongly for making a dark roux, so be sure to listen to that as well. As he says: 
  
  "For my recipe contribution, here's how to make vegan red beans and rice that even meat-eating New Orleanians will happily consume:
   
  Ingredients
  1/4 cup vegetable oil
  1/4 cup all-purpose flour
  1 large onion
  1 green bell pepper
  3 stalks celery
  1 clove garlic, minced
  1 tsp. salt
  1 tsp. smoked paprika
  1 tsp. garlic powder
  1/2 tsp. ground black pepper
  1/2 tsp. onion powder
  1/2 tsp. oregano
  1/2 tsp. thyme
  1/4 tsp. chipotle powder
  1 bay leaf
  1 lb. dried kidney beans
  6 cups water
  2 tsp. white vinegar
  1/2 tsp. liquid smoke
  3 green onions, sliced
  1/4 cup flat-leaf parsley, chopped
  White rice
   
  Instructions
  1. Combine the oil and flour in a heavy pot or Dutch oven and cook over medium heat until the color of peanut butter, stirring constantly. (This will take a while).
  2. Stir in the onions, bell pepper, and celery and cook until translucent.
  3. Add the garlic, salt, smoked paprika, garlic powder, black pepper, onion powder, oregano, thyme, chipotle powder, and bay leaf and stir for about a minute.
  4. Stir in the kidney beans, water, vinegar, and liquid smoke. Bring to a boil and cook over low heat, stirring every half hour or so, until the beans are very soft. (Make sure to scrape up the bottom of the pot so you don't end up with a burned-on layer.)
  5. When the beans are ready, stir in the green onions and parsley and remove from heat.
  6. Serve over white rice with a Louisiana-style hot sauce (ideally Crystal Extra Hot)."

   

• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and something we can all agree is a good thing to do, whatever our views of how much meat to have at breakfast are. It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Galina Kallio on Regenerative Agriculture

We spoke with Galina Kallio about regenerative agriculture, relationships of humans to the soil, and alternative forms of organizing self-reliant food economies

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• Galina Kallio is a co-founder of the Untame Research Lab which we talked about in the interview. Check it out! It hasn't yet been fully translated to English, but the google translation works well, and an English version is coming in the future.
• Galina was also kind enough to share a recipe with us! It's for a vegan cabbage dish called solyanka. As Galina says, "My grand-aunt used to make me this when I was a little girl, and I still remember the taste of this dish made with fresh cabbage from our allotment garden. The original recipe included sausages, but I have modified this to my current dietary habits.
  

  • Cabbage (preferably white but you can vary with other colours & varieties)

  • Carrots

  • Garlic

  • Onions

  • Chili (if you like, not necessary) 

  • Salt & Pepper Cut

    Cut everything in thin slices, and carrots you can grate. Use your favourite oil (olive, rapeseed)  and fry (lightly) chili & garlic in the pan, add onions. When onions have softened and gained a bit of colour add cabbage and stir & fry, after the cabbage has softened a bit add carrots. If the ingredients are dry you can add some water or broth (e.g. nettle broth!). Add salt and pepper. Stir until ingredients almost resemble 'stew' – they must be soft but not too soft! If you want to make this a bit more filling, you can use e.g. beans, tofu, or mushrooms. This can be used as a meal on its own or as a side dish."

• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and an interesting way to have a relationship with agriculture and the non-human world! It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.

Clement Loo on Just Sustainability and Engaged Scholarship

We spoke with Clement Loo about food justice and food security, including food insecurity among college students, and how academics can be engaged with communities. We also talked about his podcast, Just Sustainability.

Show Notes:

• Follow us on Twitter at @FoodThoughtPod, and you can drop us a line at ThoughtAboutFood on Gmail. Rate our podcast and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts! It helps people find the show.
• Clement Loo hosts one of my favorite podcasts, Just Sustainability. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts, or on its own website. I suggest listening to the other half of our conversation there when he interviewed me!
• Clement was kind enough to share a recipe that he grew up eating, updated with modern cooking technology:
  
  "Below is how I cook jook (which is the Cantonese name for Congee) in my Instant Pot. 
   
  This is a recipe for a dish that's a cultural food for my family, something that I really hated when I was a kid, but has now become a comfort food (particularly when I don't feel well). 
   
  When I think about jook I think about my identity as a Chinese-Canadian/American from a family that has inconsistently hung onto Cantonese (or, to be more specific, Taishanese) culture. Our ancestors first immigrated to Canada and China in the latter-half of the1800s and over that time my family has developed a hodge-podge of traditions that mixes Chinese, Anglo-Canadian, and Euro-American. This recipe, while in some ways is super traditional, is executed in a way that would be probably unrecognizable (and would be probably considered incorrect) to someone from Guangzhou. 
   
  Ingredients (serves anywhere between 2 to 4 people):
  1 cup of long-grained white rice (though medium grain rice works as well)
  6 to 8 cups of water (depending if you like a thicker or runnier gruel)
  1 Chinese sausage (i.e. lap cheong) finely diced (optional and fine to exclude if you're a vegetarian or vegan)
  1 chicken or 1/2 turkey carcass (or, if one is without a carcass or don't eat carcasses, you can replace the water with an equal amount of vegetable stock or chicken stock)
  pickled vegetables to taste, finely diced (I tend to use kimchi because it's the easiest to find but my dad uses some sort of Chinese pickles -- I think pickled radishes)
  1 century egg, finely diced (also can be excluded if one is vegan or just is thrown off by fermented eggs that are dyed black -- they have a strong sort of acetone/ammonia sort of undernote so consider yourself warned if you haven't tried them before. That said, they are terrific if you know what to expect -- they have a really complex and unique flavor)
  ginger to taste, peeled and finely chopped
  salt to taste (I tend to salt just before serving because it's hard to tell prior how much seasoning the jook will require)
  1/8 teaspoon of five spice
   
  Instructions:
  I put everything into the Instant Pot and set it to pressure cook for 30 minutes followed by a slow pressure release (i.e. I don't release the pressure but wait for it to reduce pressure on its own). Then I scoop it into a big bowl and eat it. My dad doesn't do it that way. He wouldn't add the pickles or century egg into the pot and, instead, add them as a garnish just prior to serving. Doing it my way is easier, doing it my dad's way would provide you with more textural variety (which some people might appreciate). If you use a carcass, be careful to look out for small bones when you're eating."
• The intro and outro music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" which is both a great traditional song and a great accompaniment to listening to Clement's podcast in the morning! It was performed and shared by The Dan River Ramblers under a Creative Commons license.